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Bible Study on Fire

Due to the fact that I did not want to flood the "Bible Quotes Quiz" quiz with comments, I decided to make this quiz and direct people to it instead.
Quiz by S3AM
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Last updated: August 26, 2017
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First submittedAugust 26, 2017
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No question or answers...
...only discussion in the comment section.
S3AM
+1
Level 14
Aug 27, 2017
On the "Bible Quotes Quiz", I asked Jetpunk user "Aesthus" for proof that the wicked burn for all eternity. He replied, giving me this link: "https://www.gotquestions.org/hell-real-eternal.html", and explaining there were also several resources to refer to. I started writing out my replies, and then I realized I didn't want to flood that quiz with 10-20 or more comments on one issue. There were already several debate comments, and that honestly just isnt the place. So I made this quiz specifically to debate this issue, and I put a link to it in reply to Aesthus. Now, here are my replies, to his reply to me:
S3AM
+1
Level 14
Aug 27, 2017
@Aesthus - I can see how reading something like this and the given sources can lead one to believe in an eternal burning punishment for the wicked, I really do. In my studies I came across these very same verses and thought, and really had to study hard to learn what I did. The mistake here that so many people make, is that they only read the surface of the Bible. They aren't studying it, and finding out what is truly being said. People will read 1 verse in the Bible and say, "Well since this 1 single verse out of all 31,102 total verses in the Bible says this, it must mean this". But you have got to study it. Remember, the Bible was originally written in the Greek and Hebrew languages. Our modern day, Engrish meanings and translations are a lot different from what they were back then. So now that you have shared with me your proof, I would like to share with you, my proof. I will try my best not write a sermon right now.
S3AM
+1
Level 14
Aug 27, 2017
Just as you have verses that seem to show an eternal burning for the wicked (Mark 9:44-49, Revelation 20:10, etc.), there are also verses that seem to prove the wicked will not burn for all eternity. Take for example Malachi 4:1,3, "For behold the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall 'burn them up', saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nore branch". Verse 3: "And ye shall tread down the wicked; 'for they shall be the ashes under the soles of your feet' in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts". According to this verse, the wicked are burned up to ashes, and they shall be tread down by the righteous, because they are ashes. Also, scienifically, ashes can't burn. I know, cuz I googled it. On to the next verse. Psalms 37:20...
S3AM
+1
Level 14
Aug 27, 2017
Psalms 37:20 says, "But the wicked shall 'perish', and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away". BTW, real quick, I should note, I do believe the wicked will have an eternal punishment, just not in fire. I believe Hellfire is a thing, just that it doesn't last eternally. I simply belive the wicked will be burned up in the hellfire, and then have an eternal death. The won't be suffereing in hellfire for all eternity. But back to the verse. First notice it says the wicked will perish, not burn forever. Now lets look at the ancient languages, in which this was written. The hebrew word for 'consume' in this context is 'kalah', which means to end, be finished, perish, cease. This verse seems to be clear that the wicked will ended be eternally ended, not alive, suffering in eternal fire. Next verse! Romans 6:23...
S3AM
+1
Level 14
Aug 27, 2017
This verse, Romans 6:23, was actually in the source you provided, Aesthus. It's as plain and simple as it can get, honestly. "For the wages of sin is death". What are the wages of sin? Death. not eternal suffering in agonizing fire, but, rather, death. Now I like to be certain, I am thorough, so I looked up the ancient Greek word for death in this context, and sure enough, 'Thanatos' means death. The next verse, which was also in your source, is good ol' John 3:16. "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotted son, that whosoever should believeth in him should not PERISH, but have everlasting life". It doesn't say, 'whosoever believeth in him should not burn in eternal hellfire forever and ever and ever and ever', but will simply perish. The Greek word for perish in this context is 'apollumi, which means to destroy fully, or, well, perish. I don't know about you, but the most popular Bible verse in the world seems to be pretty straight-forward and clear...
S3AM
+1
Level 14
Aug 27, 2017
Now, I know, those 4 verses aren't enought to prove my side. Just as I have verses proving my side, you have verses proving your side. The only difference right now, is I used the ancient meanings and translations to be absolutely sure of what I was talking about, but we haven't done that yet with the verses that appear to prove an eternal hellfire. So now, I want to explain what some of those verses really mean, such as Jude 7, Matthew 25:46, Mark 9:43-44, Revelation 14:10-11, and Revelation 20:10. Shall I begin?...
S3AM
+1
Level 14
Aug 27, 2017
Jude 7 says that the cities, Sodom and Gomorrah, are an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. So... I guess those cities are still burning today? No, they aren't. God did destroy the city with fiery ball of death, yes, but I'm fairly certain that the city is not still burning today. Now you could argue that the citizens are burning. Valid point. Notice, however, it says they are suffering the 'vengeance' of eternal fire, not the fire itself. Dictionary.com, the most reliable of all sources, defines vengeance as infliction of injury, basically. So, what injury would being engulfed in flames the size of a small planet influct? Very severe burns if miraculously not death. I do not belive this verse is clear enough to prove an eternal hellfire, in all true honesty. However, it doesn't fully prove my side of the story either, if I want to keep being honest. So lets move on...
S3AM
+1
Level 14
Aug 27, 2017
Matthew 25:46 is our next verse. In it, Jesus himself says, "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal". Now, I know I said I was going to look at the ancient meanings and translations to define what these verses are talking about, but sometimes, before we even do that, itt helps to understand your own language. There is a huge different between 'punishment', and 'punishing'. The verse says the wicked will go into everlasting punishMENT, not punishING. So let me ask you, what is the punishment of sin? Death, as seen in our earlier verse, Romans 6:23. The punishment is death, not eternal torment. Reread the verse with that defenition, and it reads, "The wicked will go away into everlasting death". 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 helps confirm this, saying, "In flaming fire, taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting DESTRUCTION..."
S3AM
+1
Level 14
Aug 27, 2017
Now, I had a friend once question me on this, saying, "Does that mean the wicked will keep dying, over and over again for all eternity? Here's a quote to help clear that up, quoted by Dr. Basil Atkinson in a book titled, "Life and Immortality: An Examination of the Nature and Meaning of Life and Death as They are Revealed in the Scriptures". It reads, "When the adjective aionios, meaning everlasting is used in Greek with nouns of action it has reference to the result of the act, not the process. The phrase everlasting punishment is comparable to everlasting redemption and everlasting salvation, both Scriptural phrases. No one supposes that we are being redeemed or saved forever. We were redeemed and saved once for all by Christ with eternal results. In the same way the lost will not be passing through the process of punishment forever but will be punished once and for all with eternal results". The result of the fire, death, is eternal, not the burning itself...
S3AM
+1
Level 14
Aug 27, 2017
On to the next verse... Mark 9:43-44... Oh boy. I might need like 5 comments for this one... Here we go. In it, Jesus himself, once again, says, "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenced." There is a lot to look at in this verse. First I want to look at some Biblical history. In the time of Jesus, there were 2 ways, people could be buried. 1-If you had money, the grave. 2-If you were poor, your dead body was thrown into Gehenna, the city dump outside the walls of Jerusalem. Now, Gehenna, it was always burning, 24/7, so it could destroy everything that was cast into it, and whatever the fire didn't destroy, the maggots and WORMS would. Mark 9:44, "Where the worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched". Jesus may have been using Gehenna as an example for complete, utter, destruction.
S3AM
+1
Level 14
Aug 27, 2017
Now I know, it might not be that, as it doesn't specifically say that in the Bible, but there is more to this verse. First of all, notice that it says the fire cannot be quenched. No where does it say anything, whatsoever at all about the wicked burning for all eternity, and these verses are included in the source you gave me, Aesthus. But it says the fire can't be quenched, not that the wicked will burn forever. Even this, however, doesn't mean the fire will last forever. Lets go to Jeremiah 17:27...
S3AM
+1
Level 14
Aug 27, 2017
Jeremiah 17:27, "But if you will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched". 2 things: 1-It will devour the palaces. 2-Are the palaces of Jerusalem still burning today...? Moving on. This prophecy was fulfilled in 2Chronicles 36:19, "And they burnt the house of God, and brake down the wall of Jeruslaem, and burnt all the palaces thereof with fire, and DESTROYED all the goodly vessels thereof". Jeremiah said the fire was unquenchable, yet we clearly see it isn't still burning today, and it's not talking about burning people, as Jude 7 might have. It's talking about the palaces, which are not still burning today. Also, 2Chronicles, the fulfilment of these words, says they were burnt, and destoyred. Isaiah 34:9-11 helps clear up the whole 'unquenchable' thing...
S3AM
+1
Level 14
Aug 27, 2017
Isaiah 34:9-11, "And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day.....But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it". In other words, there are living things, birds, living where this unquenchable fire was/is/will be. Interesting... Now lets see if we can clear up the whole Mark 9:43-44 things up by looking once again at the ancient languages and their ancient meanings/translations...
S3AM
+1
Level 14
Aug 27, 2017
When the Bible uses terms like "the fire can't be quenched", or "unquenchable", it is referring to the work being done by the fire. Once the fire has finished it's work, it will die out, and be gone. While the fire is working, however, no one can quench it, no one can stop the work it's doing. So in Mark, when Jesus is talking about an unquenchable fire, well, first, he may have very well been using Gehenna as an example for utter destruction, but also the fire he referred to can't be quenched while its doing it's work. Nothing can stop it from doing it's job. Once it's work is finished however, and the fuel is all gone (in this case the bodies of the wicked), the fire will go away, just as the unquenchable fire in Jerusalem was burning the palaces. It couldn't be put out while it was burning those palaces, but once the palaces were destroyed, the fire also went away. Unquenchable doesn't mean forever in the Bible, especially in this context. Now, finally moving on!
S3AM
+1
Level 14
Aug 27, 2017
Our next verse(s) to look at are Revelation 14:10-11. "The same shall drink of the wine of the 'wrath of God', which is 'poured out' without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever recieveth the mark of his name". Sounds pretty convincing when you simply read it, but take note of the phrases 'wrath of God', and 'poured out'. Whoever these people are, that their smoke is ascending forever, they are recieving the wrath of God, which was poured out. So what is the wrath of God?...
S3AM
+1
Level 14
Aug 27, 2017
Revelation 15:1 says, "And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the 'wrath of God'". The wrath of God seems to be the seven last plagues, and then Revelation 16:8-9 says, "And the fourth angel POURED OUT his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give glory". Only the wicked are scorched with the fire of the fourth plague, which Revelation 14:10-11 talks about. Revelation 14 isn't talking about hellfire at all. It's talking about the 7 last plagues, the wrath of God, which are poured out upon the earth. But now, it still says the smoke ascendeth up for ever and ever, which seems like a long time, but even that simple phrase, for ever and ever, can be so easily misunderstood.
S3AM
+1
Level 14
Aug 27, 2017
The last few verses I want to look at begin with Revelation 20:10, "And the devil that decieved them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever". This verse seems as simple as can be. There's no unquenchable fire, or punishment rather than punishing, and it is indeed talking about hellfire. The thing that you have got to remember, is that this is Engrish, not the ancient Greek language in which it was written. Depending on the context, the word forever can have several different meanings in the Bible. For example, have you ever heard someone say, "It took forever for my vacation to arrive", or, "I waited for my friends at the mall forever!". They don't literally mean forever. Waiting for your friends at the mall 'forever' may be as short as 10 minutes or something. An example of this in the Bible is seen in the book of Jonah...
S3AM
+1
Level 14
Aug 27, 2017
Jonah 2:6, "I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me 'for ever': yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God". What seemed like forever to Jonah was really only 3 days and 3 nights, spent in the belly of a whale, fish, thingy thing. Forever, in the Bible, can also mean someone's entire life. 1Samuel 1:22 says, "But Hannah went not up; for she said unto her husband, I will not go up until the child be weaned, and then I will bring him, that he may appear before the Lord, and there abide for ever". Then, verse 28, "Therefore also I have lent him to the Lord; as long as he liveth he shall be lent to the Lord. And he worshipped the Lord there". Verse 22 says Samuel would serve the Lord forever, but verse 28 says as long as he should live. Forever, in this context, meant his entire life. And besides, if it really did mean forever, then I guess he is still serving the Lord in that very temple today...? Yeeeah, clearly not...
S3AM
+1
Level 14
Aug 27, 2017
So when Revelation 20:10 says they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever, it doesn't necessarily mean that. It means they will burn until they die from it, until the fire has finished it's work. Then, their punishment of death will be eternal. They will have been completely devoured, just as the previous verse says, Revelation 20:9, "and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them". Even if your still not sure, then have a look at this. The Greek word for "forever" in this context, the context of Revelation 20:10, is "aion", which can mean a period of time, and interval, a season, or an age, but not literally forever... No where in the Bible, does it exaplain that the wicked will burn for all eternity. It may seem like it, it may read like that, but if you study it, it doesn't actually mean that...
S3AM
+1
Level 14
Aug 28, 2017
Now, I know I didn't cover every single verse that talks about hellfire in the Bible, but, I don't want to make 5,000 comments. What I covered barely scratches the surface of this topic, but it should (key word, 'should') be enough to show that God is a loving God, and would never subject anyone to eternal, agonizing, tormenting, hot, hellfire for all eternity, until time should end, forever and ever, and forever more. It is that misconception that has led numerous people to become atheists, and yet, we keep preaching it. We keep preaching false teachings about the Bible, leading people away from Christ. Just know, when reading the Bible, don't just simple read it. You have got to study it, learn what it really means. Keep in mind that Engrish is not Greek, or Hebrew. They are miles apart. The truth about hellfire is one of the biggest misconceptions in the world. Read more than 1 verse out of all 31,102 and then assume an entire doctrine from that 1 verse...
S3AM
+1
Level 14
Aug 28, 2017
Well I guess it's about time for me to stop talking now. If you still are not convinced, by all means, please do give me more proof for an eternal hellfire. I will gladly look at it and actually study it, not just read it. I do believe the wicked will have an eternal punishment, in death, but not hellfire. I do believe hellfire is a thing, but that it is just does not last, literally forever. But I am willing to accept an eternal hellfire, if you can show me where in the Bible, it actually, truthfully, clearly, and firmly says so. With this encyclopedia of words I just wrote, I'm just trying to help others, and encourage more Bible study. I want others to not just read the Bible, but study it. There is so much more to learn. Good day, sirs and mesdames!
S3AM
+1
Level 14
Sep 9, 2017
Btw, here is a great website that talks a lot about what I have mentioned here, and much, much more: https://www.helltruth.com/ Enjoy!
StealthyNinja
+1
Level 33
Jul 24, 2019
This is on a totally different note, but as I didn't want to take this argument in the Bible Quotes quiz, I took it here. In that quiz, you made the common argument of "Innocent Isolation." You pointed out that you believe that people from many religions, even athiests, will go to heaven. However, in a verse you previously referenced, John 3:16, Jesus clearly states that "Whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." There is no implication of anyone obtaining everlasting life who does NOT believe in Jesus, rather, that only those who believe in Jesus have everlasting life. Remember the story of the rich young ruler who claimed he had never broken any of God's commandments? Jesus told him that he must sell all he had and follow him, and at this, he turned away from Jesus. These two verses/stories combine to the effect that works mean nothing to God if you do not believe in him.
StealthyNinja
+1
Level 33
Jul 24, 2019
Finally, I would like to re-stress that no person is entitled to heaven by anything he does; it is by God's grace alone that anyone can enter the kingdom of heaven. I am sure you agree with this, but a key thing you may be forgetting is that Paul, in Ephesians 2, says that, "For by grace you have been saved through faith." God shows his forgiving grace to a person only if they show faith in him. The next verse goes on to say that this is the gift of God, and not of works. However, this by no means implies that works are useless! The Bible also says that "So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."(James 2:17) Other religions may have works on their side, but without faith, they are dead in their trespasses! And, many who claim to be Christians will not even enter heaven because they have no works to accompany their faith! We must remember that no one will be saved if they do not know Jesus Christ, not even those who have the greatest morals, or those who never heard.
S3AM
+1
Level 14
May 16, 2020
Excellent points man. I completely get what your saying, I really do. I probably should have stressed this when I wrote it, but as far as my statement on Atheists going to Heaven goes, that is just a personal opinion of mine, of which I have absolutely no Biblical evidence to back up, so thankyou for sharing what you did on the topic. Its something I'd just like to be true, but I cant know for sure whether it is or not. If anything, I'd point out that John 3:16 says what will/won't happen to the believers only: they wont perish, and they will live eternally. What this verse doesnt do is say what will happen to non-believers, although it may be implied. So once again, that belief of mine is just a personal one, not one that I would call Biblical truth by any means, and would totally be willing to give up. So thankyou for your input. That is what I really want for this "quiz", a place for different ideas, a place to really discuss them, and dig deep into the meanings of the Bible.
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